New design for the Tomcat website

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New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
Hi Tomcat team,

I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
preliminary feedback.

You can see the first mockup at
http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/

Please let me know your thoughts.

Best,

Igal



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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Rainer Jung-3
Thanks Igal,

Am 03.01.2019 um 02:59 schrieb Igal Sapir:
> Hi Tomcat team,
>
> I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
> preliminary feedback.
>
> You can see the first mockup at
> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
>
> Please let me know your thoughts.

I like the modern design but there are at least 5 objects loaded from 5
non-apache.org-domains (jquery, cloudflare, bootstrapcdn, googleapis,
gstatic). Personally I would prefer if we wouldn't trigger requests to
non-apache.org-domains.

Regards,

Rainer

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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Leon Rosenberg-4
Hi Igal,

looks good!

Two small things though:

Quick tested the mobile (responsive) version on an iphone, latest safari,
the text seems too far on the left side (no margin between screenend and
text).
Can send you screenshots if required.

Also I find that youtube and twitter icons look misplaced.

kind regards
Leon


On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:13 PM Rainer Jung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Igal,
>
> Am 03.01.2019 um 02:59 schrieb Igal Sapir:
> > Hi Tomcat team,
> >
> > I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
> > preliminary feedback.
> >
> > You can see the first mockup at
> > http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
> >
> > Please let me know your thoughts.
>
> I like the modern design but there are at least 5 objects loaded from 5
> non-apache.org-domains (jquery, cloudflare, bootstrapcdn, googleapis,
> gstatic). Personally I would prefer if we wouldn't trigger requests to
> non-apache.org-domains.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rainer
>
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

funkman
In reply to this post by Rainer Jung-3
I noticed that too ... but since the "integrity" attribute is present, it
doesn't seem as much a concern.

I did notice a few inline "p style="text-align: center;" which seems to be
better suited to a class element. But since they seem to be downloads -
Keeping them left aligned would work too.  Or possibly adding "btn
btn-primary" for the download links (but it that is done, the change log
links might look out of place, but class="btn btn-secondary" might work for
the change log links too)

-Tim

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:13 AM Rainer Jung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I like the modern design but there are at least 5 objects loaded from 5
> non-apache.org-domains (jquery, cloudflare, bootstrapcdn, googleapis,
> gstatic). Personally I would prefer if we wouldn't trigger requests to
> non-apache.org-domains.
>
>
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Igal Sapir
In reply to this post by Rainer Jung-3
Rainer,

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:13 AM Rainer Jung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I like the modern design but there are at least 5 objects loaded from 5
> non-apache.org-domains (jquery, cloudflare, bootstrapcdn, googleapis,
> gstatic). Personally I would prefer if we wouldn't trigger requests to
> non-apache.org-domains.
>

That is only for quick prototyping so that I can get feedback on the design
before moving forward.

All of the resources will be concatenated, minified, and delivered from the
Tomcat site when done.

Thank you for the feedback,

Igal
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Emmanuel Bourg
In reply to this post by isapir
Le 03/01/2019 à 02:59, Igal Sapir a écrit :

> I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
> preliminary feedback.
>
> You can see the first mockup at
> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
>
> Please let me know your thoughts.

I miss the left menu, I know it isn't the current trend but it allows
quick access to the main resources of the site (and since the last
redesign it folds into a hamburger button when there isn't enough space).

Also the font is bigger and reduces the number of lines visible.

Emmanuel Bourg

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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Rémy Maucherat
In reply to this post by isapir
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:59 AM Igal Sapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Tomcat team,
>
> I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
> preliminary feedback.
>
> You can see the first mockup at
> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
>
> Please let me know your thoughts.
>

It's a start, but the bottom of the page looks less polished to me. The ASF
logo should probably be on top as well as the "misc" items. I also miss the
current menu, but it's really a trend I guess :( So a compromise would be
if all items are in menus always visible at the top.

I'm not really in a rush to have the site replaced though since then the
new look would have to be propagated to everything (docs, manager, etc),
which means more work.

Rémy
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
In reply to this post by funkman
On 1/3/2019 5:10 AM, Tim Funk wrote:

> I noticed that too ... but since the "integrity" attribute is present, it
> doesn't seem as much a concern.
>
> I did notice a few inline "p style="text-align: center;" which seems to be
> better suited to a class element. But since they seem to be downloads -
> Keeping them left aligned would work too.  Or possibly adding "btn
> btn-primary" for the download links (but it that is done, the change log
> links might look out of place, but class="btn btn-secondary" might work for
> the change log links too)
>
> -Tim

Quick prototyping with snippets copied from current site etc.

Will be all cleaned up once a design is agreed upon.

Thanks,

Igal



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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
In reply to this post by Leon Rosenberg-4
On 1/3/2019 4:29 AM, Leon Rosenberg wrote:

> Hi Igal,
>
> looks good!
>
> Two small things though:
>
> Quick tested the mobile (responsive) version on an iphone, latest safari,
> the text seems too far on the left side (no margin between screenend and
> text).
> Can send you screenshots if required.
>
> Also I find that youtube and twitter icons look misplaced.

I noticed that margin/padding thing too on a small device in portrait
mode.  I'm surprised that that's the default for Bootstrap 4, but didn't
want to spend time on that before I get some feedback on the general design.

The social media icons were taken from the official sites and are not
the same size so they look weird.  It was more of a placeholder.

I should have clarified better that this is a mockup ;)

Best,

Igal



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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg
On 1/3/2019 8:18 AM, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> I miss the left menu, I know it isn't the current trend but it allows
> quick access to the main resources of the site (and since the last
> redesign it folds into a hamburger button when there isn't enough space).

That's a design decision that we need to make.

I personally think that this new layout is more modern and that a
complete redesign is long past due.

> Also the font is bigger and reduces the number of lines visible.

Are you looking on a mobile device or on a desktop?

For me, when reading code I usually want to see more lines, but when
reading text I care less about the number of lines and want it more
readable without zooming in.  On the current site I usually zoom in.  
On this one it is comfortable without zoom.

Keep in mind that most of those elements come from the Bootstrap
framework, meaning that they are battle tested for usability with
millions of deployments.

Thanks,

Igal



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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
In reply to this post by Rémy Maucherat
On 1/3/2019 8:23 AM, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:59 AM Igal Sapir <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am working on a new design for the Tomcat website and wanted some
>> preliminary feedback.
>>
>> You can see the first mockup at
>> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
> It's a start, but the bottom of the page looks less polished to me. The ASF
> logo should probably be on top as well as the "misc" items.

Putting everything in the navbar would require a vertical navigation bar
like the old one.  Otherwise, everything will be too small for usability.

Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see the
ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are there,
just not at the top of every page.

> I also miss the current menu, but it's really a trend I guess :( So a compromise would be
> if all items are in menus always visible at the top.

The navbar is "sticky" as you've probably noticed.  When you scroll down
the page the navbar shrinks in size and stays at the top.  There is
limited space there so if we want the new layout we need to pick and
choose what stays at the top and what goes in the footer.

> I'm not really in a rush to have the site replaced though since then the
> new look would have to be propagated to everything (docs, manager, etc),
> which means more work.

The plan is to encapsulate the design elements so that it's easy to
propagate.

Best,

Igal


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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

markt
On 03/01/2019 17:38, Igal Sapir wrote:

<snip/>

> Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see the
> ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
> and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are there,
> just not at the top of every page.

This shows what is required:
https://whimsy.apache.org/site/
(and how compliant various projects are)

Note: The current Tomcat non-compliance is deliberate because the
associated image was out of date again. I haven't checked to see if it
has been updated and the link restored.

I'd very much like to see the "Support Apache" button at the top. The
ASF logo is nice to have but I'm happy with it where it is (it could
even be smaller).

<snip/>

I'd also echo the comments that have been made regarding font size. I
bought a high resolution monitor so I could get lots of text on the
screen. I really dislike the current trend of towards larger and larger
fonts. What is the best way to put users in control so those that like
large fonts have large fonts and those that want lots of text have lots
of text?

Mark

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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
On 1/3/2019 12:09 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:

> On 03/01/2019 17:38, Igal Sapir wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
>> Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see the
>> ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
>> and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are there,
>> just not at the top of every page.
> This shows what is required:
> https://whimsy.apache.org/site/
> (and how compliant various projects are)

Good to know.  Kafka's compliance is the same as the current Tomcat, and
Spark's is at 100%.

> Note: The current Tomcat non-compliance is deliberate because the
> associated image was out of date again. I haven't checked to see if it
> has been updated and the link restored.
>
> I'd very much like to see the "Support Apache" button at the top. The
> ASF logo is nice to have but I'm happy with it where it is (it could
> even be smaller).

I moved the Support Apache icon to the top so we can see how it looks.

> I'd also echo the comments that have been made regarding font size. I
> bought a high resolution monitor so I could get lots of text on the
> screen. I really dislike the current trend of towards larger and larger
> fonts. What is the best way to put users in control so those that like
> large fonts have large fonts and those that want lots of text have lots
> of text?

Here's an experiment - I added a dropdown to the menu with an icon "A"
that opens up a slider that lets you choose a font size (12px, 16, 20). 
The size is persisted with localStorage which is supported by all modern
browsers, though a cookie can be used instead.

I also improved the social media icons and margins on very small screens
per Leon's feedback.

The Search box can be collapse to preserve screen space and only open up
when the search icon is clicked.

Please be sure to reload the page, and keep in mind that this is a
mockup where not everything is working 100% yet:
http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/

Best,

Igal



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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
On 1/3/2019 3:47 PM, Igal Sapir wrote:
> <snip/> I added a dropdown to the menu with an icon "A" that opens up
> a slider that lets you choose a font size (12px, 16, 20).

I actually changed it so it's more granular ATM - 12 through 20px with
step 1.

Opening the Console tab in the browser's Developer Tools shows the font
size.

Igal


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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

markt
In reply to this post by isapir
On 03/01/2019 23:47, Igal Sapir wrote:

> On 1/3/2019 12:09 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:
>> On 03/01/2019 17:38, Igal Sapir wrote:
>>
>> <snip/>
>>
>>> Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see the
>>> ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
>>> and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are there,
>>> just not at the top of every page.
>> This shows what is required:
>> https://whimsy.apache.org/site/
>> (and how compliant various projects are)
>
> Good to know.  Kafka's compliance is the same as the current Tomcat, and
> Spark's is at 100%.

If you follow the link from there to the policy:
https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#navigation

you'll see that the required links need to be part of the main
navigation. To me, this means another drop-down in the top menu (like
spark.a.o has)

>> Note: The current Tomcat non-compliance is deliberate because the
>> associated image was out of date again. I haven't checked to see if it
>> has been updated and the link restored.
>>
>> I'd very much like to see the "Support Apache" button at the top. The
>> ASF logo is nice to have but I'm happy with it where it is (it could
>> even be smaller).
>
> I moved the Support Apache icon to the top so we can see how it looks.
>
>> I'd also echo the comments that have been made regarding font size. I
>> bought a high resolution monitor so I could get lots of text on the
>> screen. I really dislike the current trend of towards larger and larger
>> fonts. What is the best way to put users in control so those that like
>> large fonts have large fonts and those that want lots of text have lots
>> of text?
>
> Here's an experiment - I added a dropdown to the menu with an icon "A"
> that opens up a slider that lets you choose a font size (12px, 16, 20). 
> The size is persisted with localStorage which is supported by all modern
> browsers, though a cookie can be used instead.

That works for me.

Hmm. We have a lot of white-space. Should we consider a two column
format for the news when there is sufficient screen width?

> I also improved the social media icons and margins on very small screens
> per Leon's feedback.
>
> The Search box can be collapse to preserve screen space and only open up
> when the search icon is clicked.
>
> Please be sure to reload the page, and keep in mind that this is a
> mockup where not everything is working 100% yet:
> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/

Not an issue for the website but it could be if we want to apply the
same look and feel to the Tomcat docs. What libraries have you used to
create this site and what are the licenses of each?

Cheers,

Mark

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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Rémy Maucherat
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/01/2019 23:47, Igal Sapir wrote:
> > On 1/3/2019 12:09 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:
> >> On 03/01/2019 17:38, Igal Sapir wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip/>
> >>
> >>> Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see
> the
> >>> ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
> >>> and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are
> there,
> >>> just not at the top of every page.
> >> This shows what is required:
> >> https://whimsy.apache.org/site/
> >> (and how compliant various projects are)
> >
> > Good to know.  Kafka's compliance is the same as the current Tomcat, and
> > Spark's is at 100%.
>
> If you follow the link from there to the policy:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#navigation
>
> you'll see that the required links need to be part of the main
> navigation. To me, this means another drop-down in the top menu (like
> spark.a.o has)
>

+1
The two blocks of links at the bottom are also important, they will have to
be added to a new "misc" menu or something, there's really no good way
around this.

First block is:
    Who We Are
    Swag
    Heritage
    Resources
    Contact

Second one is:
    Apache Software Foundation
    Legal
    Support Apache
    Sponsorship
    Thanks
    License

Rémy

>
> >> Note: The current Tomcat non-compliance is deliberate because the
> >> associated image was out of date again. I haven't checked to see if it
> >> has been updated and the link restored.
> >>
> >> I'd very much like to see the "Support Apache" button at the top. The
> >> ASF logo is nice to have but I'm happy with it where it is (it could
> >> even be smaller).
> >
> > I moved the Support Apache icon to the top so we can see how it looks.
> >
> >> I'd also echo the comments that have been made regarding font size. I
> >> bought a high resolution monitor so I could get lots of text on the
> >> screen. I really dislike the current trend of towards larger and larger
> >> fonts. What is the best way to put users in control so those that like
> >> large fonts have large fonts and those that want lots of text have lots
> >> of text?
> >
> > Here's an experiment - I added a dropdown to the menu with an icon "A"
> > that opens up a slider that lets you choose a font size (12px, 16, 20).
> > The size is persisted with localStorage which is supported by all modern
> > browsers, though a cookie can be used instead.
>
> That works for me.
>
> Hmm. We have a lot of white-space. Should we consider a two column
> format for the news when there is sufficient screen width?
>
> > I also improved the social media icons and margins on very small screens
> > per Leon's feedback.
> >
> > The Search box can be collapse to preserve screen space and only open up
> > when the search icon is clicked.
> >
> > Please be sure to reload the page, and keep in mind that this is a
> > mockup where not everything is working 100% yet:
> > http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/
>
> Not an issue for the website but it could be if we want to apply the
> same look and feel to the Tomcat docs. What libraries have you used to
> create this site and what are the licenses of each?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

Igal Sapir
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 1:39 AM Rémy Maucherat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 03/01/2019 23:47, Igal Sapir wrote:
> > > On 1/3/2019 12:09 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:
> > >> On 03/01/2019 17:38, Igal Sapir wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <snip/>
> > >>
> > >>> Looking at other ASF sites like Kafka, Pulsar, and Spark I don't see
> > the
> > >>> ASF logo at the top - is that really a requirement? Tomcat is popular
> > >>> and its brand is recognizable.  ASF logo and trademark notice are
> > there,
> > >>> just not at the top of every page.
> > >> This shows what is required:
> > >> https://whimsy.apache.org/site/
> > >> (and how compliant various projects are)
> > >
> > > Good to know.  Kafka's compliance is the same as the current Tomcat,
> and
> > > Spark's is at 100%.
> >
> > If you follow the link from there to the policy:
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#navigation
> >
> > you'll see that the required links need to be part of the main
> > navigation. To me, this means another drop-down in the top menu (like
> > spark.a.o has)
> >
>
> +1
> The two blocks of links at the bottom are also important, they will have to
> be added to a new "misc" menu or something, there's really no good way
> around this.
>
> First block is:
>     Who We Are
>     Swag
>     Heritage
>     Resources
>     Contact
>
> Second one is:
>     Apache Software Foundation
>     Legal
>     Support Apache
>     Sponsorship
>     Thanks
>     License
>

I made changes according to your feedback.  You can see them at
http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-2/

To make room for the nav items, I moved the logos above the nav bar.  That
also allowed for the ASF logos to be shown at the top.  On a very small
screen, the full ASF logo is replaced with the Feather logo.  The social
media and font-size selector were moved to the bottom, and the search field
is collapsed until it gets focus.


> >
> > >> <snip/>
> >
> > Hmm. We have a lot of white-space. Should we consider a two column
> > format for the news when there is sufficient screen width?
>

See example of ApacheCon 2019 in new mockup.


> >
> > > <snip/> <http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-1/>
> >
> > Not an issue for the website but it could be if we want to apply the
> > same look and feel to the Tomcat docs. What libraries have you used to
> > create this site and what are the licenses of each?
>

 While we definitely want to keep the L&F consistent, I am not sure that
those other properties would need the full experience as the site, e.g. do
the offline docs and site manager need to have a responsive design that
would work on a mobile device?

The main libraries used are:

Bootstrap 4 - MIT license - https://getbootstrap.com/docs/4.1/about/license/
jQuery 3 - MIT license - https://jquery.org/license/
Popper.js (comes with Bootstrap, not using features ATM AFAIK) - MIT
license - https://github.com/FezVrasta/popper.js/blob/master/LICENSE.md

Please let me know your thoughts.

Best,

Igal
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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

markt
On 05/01/2019 01:23, Igal Sapir wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

<snip/>

> I made changes according to your feedback.  You can see them at
> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-2/
>
> To make room for the nav items, I moved the logos above the nav bar.  That
> also allowed for the ASF logos to be shown at the top.  On a very small
> screen, the full ASF logo is replaced with the Feather logo.  The social
> media and font-size selector were moved to the bottom, and the search field
> is collapsed until it gets focus.

Just noticed that is an old version of the Tomcat logo without the TM.
(A very, very minor issue.)

>>> Hmm. We have a lot of white-space. Should we consider a two column
>>> format for the news when there is sufficient screen width?
>
> See example of ApacheCon 2019 in new mockup.

That part of the page seems to make better use of the space to me so I
like it.

>>> Not an issue for the website but it could be if we want to apply the
>>> same look and feel to the Tomcat docs. What libraries have you used to
>>> create this site and what are the licenses of each?
>>
>
>  While we definitely want to keep the L&F consistent, I am not sure that
> those other properties would need the full experience as the site, e.g. do
> the offline docs and site manager need to have a responsive design that
> would work on a mobile device?
>
> The main libraries used are:
>
> Bootstrap 4 - MIT license - https://getbootstrap.com/docs/4.1/about/license/
> jQuery 3 - MIT license - https://jquery.org/license/
> Popper.js (comes with Bootstrap, not using features ATM AFAIK) - MIT
> license - https://github.com/FezVrasta/popper.js/blob/master/LICENSE.md

Looks to be all MIT then so that should be OK.

> Please let me know your thoughts.

I like it. I'd offer to help but my web authoring skills never got
further than hand-crafting HTML in $OS_DEFAULT_TEXT_EDITOR

Mark

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Re: New design for the Tomcat website

isapir
On 1/10/2019 7:20 AM, Mark Thomas wrote:

> On 05/01/2019 01:23, Igal Sapir wrote:
>> I made changes according to your feedback.  You can see them at
>> http://people.apache.org/~isapir/mockups/tomcat-site-2/
>>
>> To make room for the nav items, I moved the logos above the nav bar.  That
>> also allowed for the ASF logos to be shown at the top.  On a very small
>> screen, the full ASF logo is replaced with the Feather logo.  The social
>> media and font-size selector were moved to the bottom, and the search field
>> is collapsed until it gets focus.
> Just noticed that is an old version of the Tomcat logo without the TM.
> (A very, very minor issue.)

This is an SVG format so I really like it as it is small in byte-size
yet Scalable in image-size.  I will try to add TM to it with my limited
graphic design skills.  If that doesn't go easily I'll just use the
image from the current site for now.

>
>>>> Hmm. We have a lot of white-space. Should we consider a two column
>>>> format for the news when there is sufficient screen width?
>> See example of ApacheCon 2019 in new mockup.
> That part of the page seems to make better use of the space to me so I
> like it.
>
>>>> Not an issue for the website but it could be if we want to apply the
>>>> same look and feel to the Tomcat docs. What libraries have you used to
>>>> create this site and what are the licenses of each?
>>   While we definitely want to keep the L&F consistent, I am not sure that
>> those other properties would need the full experience as the site, e.g. do
>> the offline docs and site manager need to have a responsive design that
>> would work on a mobile device?
>>
>> The main libraries used are:
>>
>> Bootstrap 4 - MIT license - https://getbootstrap.com/docs/4.1/about/license/
>> jQuery 3 - MIT license - https://jquery.org/license/
>> Popper.js (comes with Bootstrap, not using features ATM AFAIK) - MIT
>> license - https://github.com/FezVrasta/popper.js/blob/master/LICENSE.md
> Looks to be all MIT then so that should be OK.
>
>> Please let me know your thoughts.
> I like it. I'd offer to help but my web authoring skills never got
> further than hand-crafting HTML in $OS_DEFAULT_TEXT_EDITOR

No worries.  I'm happy to work on this, was just waiting for feedback.

@Rémy - let me know if those changes addressed your concerns.

I'll wait a bit longer to see if anyone else raises any issues that
should be addressed.

Best,

Igal



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